Climate Change and Global Warming

Originally Posted by WhiskeyandGunpowder

Originally Posted by IanD

I think you're one of the few people in the entire world that are actually debating if there's warming going on.

Today's heresy is tomorrow's science, someone has to wake the sheep from their CNN/FOX inflicted somnambulism. Don't forget to pay your global carbon tax on the way to your work cubicle...

Now now, not always, keeping in mind of course the group against global warming has actually been a shrinking one which seems to imply that area of science is not correct.

I do notice though that your argument has been widdled down substantially. Does this mean you might finally be coming around to the dark side? I hope so.

I do like though that you seem to dislike pollution in general which is a good thing.

Thanks IanD for a lot of your comments and links.

I would just like to point out though that 'widdling' is peeing,while 'whittling' is carving. I think you're saying that Whiskey's arguments are being whittled down or carved away. Unless I'm wrong and you want to say he's pissing in the wind.

Cheers and keep up the good fight!

Originally Posted by scrog

Thanks IanD for a lot of your comments and links.

I would just like to point out though that 'widdling' is peeing,while 'whittling' is carving. I think you're saying that Whiskey's arguments are being whittled down or carved away. Unless I'm wrong and you want to say he's pissing in the wind.

Cheers and keep up the good fight!

Haha, yea 'whittling'.

Also:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqesgXP6_FY
-more entertainment than science in this case-

Originally Posted by WhiskeyandGunpowder

Originally Posted by IanD

I do notice though that your argument has been widdled down substantially. Does this mean you might finally be coming around to the dark side? I hope so.

No still fighting for the rebellion, we get the death star in the end.

Originally Posted by IanD

I do like though that you seem to dislike pollution in general which is a good thing.

It is my motivation. I have several issues with the Global Warming theme...
1. "Carbon Taxes" solve nothing, the corporations that pay them write off the expense or trade their "allowances" to each other while Joe Average once again foots the bill. But this time the intention is that their "carbon taxes" will ultimately become a source of revenue for the UN thus creating an international tax base for that highly corrupt useless organization and by extension globalist access your personal finances etc... I will oppose this as long as it is possible.

2. The global warming science which I continue to believe is being bent to serve other purposes, once disproven and I still believe it will be, will result in the destruction of the real environmental movement, the one that fights pollution when it is not popular to do so. What could be more appetizing to multinational corporations then the removal of the validity of major green initiatives? Nothing. When multinational corporations support an environmental initiative we should all stand back and reexamine it because their prime motivation is never altruism.

3. It distracts from what we can do right now right away, but see point 2. who benefits when so much energy is wasted on something so difficult to even quantify? Any real change requires corporate governance to diminish and real costs and challenges that they will never openly tolerate. Can you imagine our government sending a destroyer out to our fishing grounds and actually defending against drift netting? Remember when we cared about this? There has been only one change in regards to this, we are running out of fish. There is a shopping list of things we should be doing, paying more taxes isn't it. Getting older poorly maintained vehicles off the road will do far more to benefit the atmosphere then trying to stop people from owning trucks. My last truck had 330 thousand kilometers on it when I traded it in and when its exhaust was last tested it passed like it was new, why? because I maintained it rigorously with synthetic oils (thus recyclable) throughout its lifetime at the appropriate intervals. Imagine if we just made everyone do that! If you can't afford to maintain a vehicle you shouldn't be able to own it! Let's stop transport trucks from using home heating oil to operate! They spew tonnes of sulfur into the atmosphere every day because they save taxes by using this fuel source illegally. Let's force the all marine operations from personal fishing boats to large tankers to use biodiesel instead of regular diesel or gas so that when there is a spill from a maintenance issue or from just filling up your tank, there is no net impact on the environment! This would be so easy to do and it would create all kinds of jobs, would not cost much, we already make more then enough biodiesel from recycled fats to do this. But what are we doing? Worrying about our breath.

There I'm done ranting.

Consider, whether anthropic global warming is real or not, every one of the changes I have listed here and in other places in this thread will directly or indirectly contribute to change that must ultimately impact the atmosphere in a wonderful way. I still firmly believe we are being hoodwinked like the magician who gets you to look at his right hand so you don't see what he is doing with his left.

Well i'm glad we're back to a more light hearted discussion. For your first point i really can't comment on carbon taxes because I don't know enough about them yet. I can however understand your dislike for them and i can see how they have the possibility for abuse. The idea is though to encourage growth of greener products while taxing less green products. It's to balance out the fact it's usually cheaper do build things that arn't green vs things that are. The interesting thing about the proposed carbon tax of course is that certain businesses will actually be able to profit from them by selling their carbon limits to other less environmentally friendly businesses.

As for your second point global warming is currently the consensus and there doesn't appear to be many holes at all in the science. There are no long any scientific organizations against global warming save a few fringe scientists. Even large oil companies like Exxon now acknowledge global warming and look to cut carbon emissions. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16593606/

Now your 3rd point is where life gets difficult. I'm glad you've been doing a lot to reduce waste and air pollution. Infact if more people did what you do we might be better off than we are now. However the issue with global warming is that it is a 'now' issue in the sense we only have so long to reverse it. There are various tipping points in the environment that could cause a 'runaway train' effect which is why we need to act sooner than later. That isn't to say of course we should ignore any of the other issues which you have brought up which also need to be delt with, but we do only have a limited time when it comes to man made global warming.

Originally Posted by metatron

... but we do only have a limited time when it comes to man made global warming.

But what do we do about the missing sun spots ?

Don't have to do anything really.

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2006 ... grange.htm

Here's some more information on it. It's interesting of course that depsite the low sunspot activity (which by the way only has a marginal effect on the climate) we are still breaking global temperature records yearly.

Originally Posted by WhiskeyandGunpowder

Your absolutely right Ian, there were a lot of record lows this winter especially in China and Russia

Hey look more regional changes!

Shrinking Glaciers Redraw Europe's Borders
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/05/0 ... rders.html

The last 8 years have still been all in the top 10 years on record. Certainly sounds like a cooling doesn't it? With each year still maintaining in the top 10 hottest.


edit: Also i would like to place a rebuttal for any future comments anyone may have in regards to climate change.

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/ar ... tart-here/

It's basically a lesson plan that explains away 99% of the crap thats been spewed in this thread.