4 Step Perfect Proof for God and Minimal Facts Approach

Originally Posted by Penguin

And I welcome you to go piss up a rope.

We don't go to your church to shout about how you worship a false god. Your behaviour here isn't any more appropriate.

Aw you were able to quote it b4 it was deleted, now his post is immortalized. :P

Originally Posted by Parture

"By which also ye are saved...how that Christ died for our sins" (1 Cor. 15.2,3).

"And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day" (v.4).

"After three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days" (Gal. 1.18). Paul also saw "James the Lord's brother" (v.19).

"And that he was seen of Cephas [Peter], then of the twelve" (1 Cor. 15.6).

"After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep" (v.6).

We have no reports from any of them they were misrepresented by Paul.

"After that, he was seen of James [brother of Jesus]; then of all the apostles" (v.7)-more than just the Twelve.

"And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time" (v.8).

It's safe to say Paul got this information from Peter which agreed with his own revelation from God.

Peter is one of the original twelve disciples Jesus chose.

Paul died for his testimony as did Peter and James.

Paul really wrote 1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2 and believed it all his life.

In Galatians 2, Paul meets up James and Peter again after several years, and also discusses matters with John. They are all in agreement still.

Now since group hallucinations are impossible and we have 11 sources for the martyrdom of the original eyewitnesses and people don't willingly die for a lie, we know that Jesus really resurrected.

Since there is no way to overturn this proof, it must be true.

I could cite over a hundred, if not over a thousand sources that said the earth was flat a thousand years ago... that doesn't mean it's true.

Originally Posted by wheels5894

So, there are no records of visions as described but that tells us nothing. The that nothing was found does not mean that you can make an argument from nothing. It is quite clear that large amounts of information and records were lost from the first century and so the fact that the particular things cannot be found really it does not tell us anything useful at all. However consider the following --

1. There is plenty of evidence today for the fact that people who have recently lost a relative sometimes I see that relative size in a favourite position or standing in a well-known spot. It is a well documented phenomena -- indeed my wife who doesn't reason counselling has entered candidate as well as being told about it in her training. Therefore, there is no reason to believe that this did not happen to the disciples shortly after Jesus's death. Indeed, given that they had given their whole lives to following Jesus the three year as one would expect that the sum of what is the visuals of Jesus after his death as part of the grieving process. Does I think we have a reasonable explanation of the shoes of Jesus after his death -- it is only a naturalistic explanation that does not require any extra supernatural additions.

2. Now we move on to the stories in the Bible about these visions. As you know we do not have the original Gospel is the only copies of copies of copies. However you care to date the Gospels -- the second half of the first century is most likely -- one can see the stories which would have been oral stories originally have become enhanced in the telling as happens with all sorts of stories that we hear now. Thus, the sightings of a dead Jesus by a few of the disciples grows over the decades and a much larger sightings of Jesus -- Paul mentions some 500 experiencing this at once but, you should notice, there is no indication of where or who experienced the vision. Indeed, Paul himself did not do see it either. This is quite comparable with more recent times and the visions of the Virgin Mary in different places around the world.

So, some other, we can reasonably explain some people seeing Jesus after he died just as happens now and I can quite see how the telling of all stories prior to their inclusion in the Gospels explains the growth in the number of people in the style of the visions which they saw. Your call -- you now have a naturalistic explanation so where do you go from now.

Your whole approach here fails because you don't deal with different group settings seeing Jesus alive from the dead over 40 days.

A crowd of 500 "most of whom are still alive" at the time of Paul's writing (1 Cor. 15.6). This may have been the same group as in Matt. 28.16: the rendezvous was to "to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them." Unlike the other accounts which were unexpected and by surprise, and to gather such a large number of people, this meeting was held outdoors. The women were told to tell the disciples to meet Jesus in Galilee as well. "And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted" (Matt. 28.17) may be a reference to many present, both believers and non-believers. Paul had firsthand contact with them. So it was not a legend. He knew some of the people had died in the interim, but most were still alive. He is saying in effect they are still there to be questioned. You can talk to some of the witnesses. He never could have made this challenge if this event had not occurred.

Luke wrote a biography of Paul in Acts but makes no mention of his death. That's sorta important when you are writing a biography of someone. Paul died around 65 AD in the Neronian persecutions, so that places Acts around 55 AD. Luke said Acts was part two of his former work, the book of Luke. So that places Luke around 45 AD. But Luke took from mark, so that places Mark around 35 AD. And since Mark worked closely with Peter, that places 1 & 2 Peter quite early as well.

Since you can produce the whole NT except for 11 verses from quotes of the church fathers in the late first century, and in the 2nd century, that doesn't fit with your late dating.

Furthermore we have close to 20 fragments in the 1st and 2nd century without even including the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Dead Sea Scrolls provides us up to 27 verses within 12 books of the NT all carbon dated before 65 AD.

Polycarp and Clement of Rome knew John and Peter personally.

There is no evidence for any of your claims. You can assume then all the books of the NT were written during their events or shortly after.

Hope that helps.