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Looking for advice on how to improve the delivery of my arguments.

This is a discussion on Looking for advice on how to improve the delivery of my arguments. within the General Discussion forums, part of the General category; Hello, I am new here and this is the first new thread (other than my introduction) that I have posted. ...

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    Infrequens Posteri
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    Default Looking for advice on how to improve the delivery of my arguments.

    Hello,

    I am new here and this is the first new thread (other than my introduction) that I have posted. I feel I am fairly strong on the content of my arguments, but I think the fact that I am very straight forward and unapologetic is hurting my arguments. I am looking for advice on how to improve my delivery, perhaps some books that would help me understand how different delivery types work with different people. I think it's kind of funny that the golden rule doesn't seem to apply here.

    A recent example is my girlfriend and I had a friend stay the night. Lat e at night we got into debating evolution. This topic was brought up by her friend, and her friend is a self identifying non-believer (although a fairly recent de-convert by the sound of it). She was bringing up standard creationist arguments against evolution. I don't think she was trying to argue against evolution, but looking for answers to questions she had recently encountered. I answered these questions in a fairly standard way, but apparently afterward she told my girlfriend that she thought we (my girlfriend also took part in this) were condescending. I think my girlfriend was being polite when she told me this and that the truth was the her friend thought I was condescending. I don't think she understands the definition of condescending, but regardless of that the fact remains that I obviously need to find a way to better deliver my message.

    I was brought up to value straight-forwardness. I grew up in a small redneck town and I have little tolerance for stupidity. If I want to make my case though, I need to find a better way.

    Thanks in advance.

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    Senior Member Blondin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for advice on how to improve the delivery of my arguments.

    I don't know how to respond to this without sounding condescending...

    I would suggest that, rather than try to answer all the questions, try to point people towards sources of information that you have found to be useful - book titles, websites, Wikipedia articles, etc.
    "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself -- and you are the easiest person to fool." -- Richard Feynman

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    Senior Member Penguin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for advice on how to improve the delivery of my arguments.

    It's hard to say based on an internet conversation what she was taking issue with, but I have seen people get their back up during discussions of creationism when the creationist infers an implicit message that they're ignorant.

    It may very well be true, but it's not the sort of message that tends to bring people to your side. In these sorts of situations, as long as I think the person's being actually sincere and isn't just playing dumb, I'll usually try to focus on the facts and evidence, and try to avoid anything that can be taken as a personal slight ("you think ____? But even grade 9 science would tell you that's wrong!").

    Treat the person with respect and friendliness, but be clear in your factual arguments and avoid editorializing. They don't know something that they probably should, and that's unfortunate, but it doesn't make them idiots or children.

    Overall, I think it's a difficult tighrope to walk, because it's very easy for an argument against creationism to come across as "you're an ignorant fool who's been duped by liars". It's a lot like how victims of fraud are often reluctant to report the crime to the police, because they feel ashamed of the fact that they were "stupid" enough to be defrauded.

    People put a lot of value on saving face, so I think that convincing a creationist of evolution isn't just a matter of providing factual arguments; it's also a matter of giving them an "out" so that they can go from one position to the other in a way that lets them not look foolish for having been creationists in the first place. Of course, that's easier said than done.

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    Infrequens Posteri
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    Default Re: Looking for advice on how to improve the delivery of my arguments.

    Maybe I need to be a little clearer. All of my responses were strictly factual, and I did not use ay personal attacks. I think in the vast majority of situations my responses would have been taken well, but different people react in different ways when encountering new information. Michael Shermer is an example of someone who can make an intelligent argument while coming across as very respectful. Christopher Hitchens is someone who can make the same argument, but come across as an ass (I love Hitchens). I am probably somewhere in the middle in my delivery, but with certain sensitive people I would like to be more like Shermer. I am wondering if anyone, possibly with a psychology background, can point me in the right direction on learning how to interact with different personality types.

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    Senior Member choSenfroZen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for advice on how to improve the delivery of my arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danziger View Post
    Maybe I need to be a little clearer. All of my responses were strictly factual, and I did not use ay personal attacks. I think in the vast majority of situations my responses would have been taken well, but different people react in different ways when encountering new information. .
    Danziger,

    how can a conversation like that not condescend. I understand what the Penguin says, and avoid things like "stoopid" and "a grade niner caould figure that out."

    But it still seems like a fairly easy arguments against the standard creationist pap. I just aviod talking about it with friends, you know about the bush hippies hereabouts, so it rarely happens anyway, but I have at least twice tried when friends try to SAVE me and I always begin with a caveat emptor, announcing a difficult and heated discussion may ensue. I have told them it's not personal Buuuuuuuut.....
    Relatives and others are free game, and I live by the Pat Condell Motto "I don't respect your beliefs, and I don't care if you're offended, cheers."
    " Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? "
    - Epicurus

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    Senior Member choSenfroZen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for advice on how to improve the delivery of my arguments.

    Danziger, here is a superb response to a similar question from the thinkatheist forums

    Christian Seeking Advice - Think Atheist
    " Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? "
    - Epicurus

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