Fairy tales about God ? Some questions for Atheists

I being a Muslim believe in God.
I've started this thread to discuss some questions that I have i my mind to see what your answer to them is. I've put this thread in 'General' because I think it best fits here.

Q The big BANG ! occured, the universe came into being,many dimensions existed now, space was here, time was here,matter was here, energy was here,forces were here, it progressed, it developed it probably evolved, the sun was formed, so were billions of stars and galaxies, the Earth formed and so did the solar system and the moon, everything evolved, the Earth evolved it cooled, oxygen came, many elemnts were here, many minerals were here, water is here, now life comes into existence on Earth, it evolves, it becomes more and more complex, it evolves like everything else has without reason or without a goal. There is so much diversity ,so much depth, so much secrets, so much complexity but all without reason or goal. Life continues to evolve and animals form they've got brains but they can't understand much yet, they continue to evolve, mammals form they can't understand much either they're just evolving nothing matters to them. Then humans evolve into existence, now they can see, they can understand, they can appreciate the diversity, the depth, the complexity, they can understand that there are forces, there is energy, matter, space, dimensions, time they can make use of minerals deposited by chance, they can build things using them.
Everything before this was without use without purpose but now everything finds use everything finds purpose.

Isn't it very preplexing to see what has happened ? Why is it that something had to evolve that understood the meaning of everything or tried to explore the secrets which were always there ?
Why is it that humans evolved to explore these secrets and understand everything ? Before we thought that the Earth was flat but now we know it's a sphere, why did we want to know how the Earth looks like ?


I'm asking this question putting myself at the position of a nuetral observer, I don't want to prove or disprove anything, I just have curiosity which leads me to these questions. Then why do I have curiosity ?

Couldn't it all have happened in infinite other ways ? Then why did it happen in this way ? Why did the stars have to form and then earth and then life and then human life which could understand what had and is happening and what the stars are ?

Perhaps "why" is a meaningless question. Why do you presume things had to happen the way they did?

While everything has a cause there is no evidence that the universe was/is/will be on any kind of predesignated path to any goal. The universe appears to be neither benign nor hostile; merely indifferent (Carl Sagan).

It seems quite possible it all could have happened in infinite other ways. If our universe didn't develop in such a way as to contain us then neither you nor I would be around to wonder about such things.

Let me put it this way, I don't know exactly how big the universe is, but if someone told me that it is 100m long because some ancient people wrote it in a book, I'm obviously not gonna believe him, because I know that it's impossible for it to be just 100m long, right? in the same way, I don't exactly know the universe came to exist, but I do know that it's impossible for it to have been created the way some old book says (whether it is the Bible, the Qur'an, etc.) because 95% of the stuff that those books say is completely nonsense and totally refutable.

That's the difference between me (an atheist) and a religious person, we both don't know but religious people choose to believe all that nonsense (because it is nonsense, whether they admit it or not).

For example, it'd be pretty cool if Santa Claus actually existed, but unfortunately he doesn't, and I'm not gonna lie to myself into thinking that he does exist just because it makes me feel better.

You're making an assumption that I found a tad interesting. Why, in an infinite universe that humanity hasn't even scratched the surface of, are you so sure that humanity is both the first and only intelligence? Now I'm not saying UFO's are real or anything like that, but in an infinite universe is it really so hard to believe that there could be other more intelligent life out there? I think it's a given.

Why do humans want to know more about the world? Curiosity. We want to know why things happen, rather than except the first thoughts that enter our head (religion). Yes everything could have happened billions upon trillions of other ways, but it didn't. Why is a pointless question to ask, it happened because this is what happened after our universe began (if it had a beginning) it's existence.

Thanks for the replies everyone.

So you all do agree that you are as confused as I am at seeing all this but maybe (as supaman89 put it) I choose to believe in some old nonesense book and you choose not to believe in it ? Ok I'll discuss this topic later.

You say why is a meaningless question ? But why is that ? There must be some explanation wouldn't there and if we don't ask why how can we reach the real explanation ?

@Kiefer
You said 'infinite universe' and then you said 'if it had a begining' it seems you don't believe in the big bang theory ?


Let me put thigns a different way and see your explanation.

If there were no matter, life would not exist, if there were no space, no time, no energy, no forces life would not exist.
What if the big bang happened more explosively ? What if it occured less explosively ? Search the internet on big bang and you'll find that scientists are very confused why the explosion was so precise so as to form everything we see today, they say that during it's very early stages the universe had a inflation which caused the univrese to expand more otherwise it might have collapsed back, why did this extra inflation take place ?

I've got more but I'm settling for this much now.

Originally Posted by Penguin

The big bang theory doesn't say that nothing existed before the big bang. What it does say is that all matter and energy that we see around us can be traced back to one singularity. It doesn't say how that singularity came to be, or what existed before the big bang (or even whether there is such a thing as "before the big bang").

What I've read about the big bang it says that the universe came into being after the big bang hence the universe is of finite age, mass and space it's not infinite, it's age is estimated to 14 billion years. Yes it does talk of the singularity that was the starting point, it doesn't say anything about why or how the singularity appeared or why it exploded with such precision or what might have existed outside the singularity.

Have you checked about the initial expansion that took place seconds after the universe began, this expansion was very crucial or the universe wouldn't have existed but it is still a hypothesis that it occured because no one knows the cause of this inflation (which was also very precise). See it on wikipedia.

Originally Posted by Penguin

It seems like you're operating under the assumption that the universe had to turn out the way it did.

And what if I had such an assumption ? What is logically wrong with such an assumption, since no one has the answers I can make a logical assumption.

What surprises me and what my next question would be is why you guys aren't agnostic ? it seems you don't have an answer but you won't believe in some religious none sense that should make you agnostics but you choose to be atheists why ?

You might have seen that some of the world's greatest minds in science were agnostics like Einstein and steven hawking and science is the heart and soul of your point of view.

I think you'll find that most of the people on this board are not really comfortable with the term 'atheist' in the sense that an atheist claims there is no god or can be no god. To believe (or claim to know) that there is no god is just as silly as claiming to know there is one (see Dawkins' seven levels of belief). Personally, I rank the existence of a creator on a par with leprechauns, unicorns, fairies, Santa Claus, Nessie, bigfoot, etc.

If you want to insist that this fits more with the definition of agnostic then go for it. I am not defined by a label.

As for 'choosing to be atheist', there is no choice involved. If you really have the ability to choose to believe something that your senses and intellect tell you makes no sense then I have some magic healing crystals you might be interested in.

That's an attempt at humour, btw. My point is that beliefs should be based on the best information available. There's nothing wrong with provisionally accepting a postulate until convincing evidence is provided for or against it but to cling to dogma that has no compelling or corroborating support is just being gullible.

Originally Posted by Blondin

I think you'll find that most of the people on this board are not really comfortable with the term 'atheist' in the sense that an atheist claims there is no god or can be no god. To believe (or claim to know) that there is no god is just as silly as claiming to know there is one (see Dawkins' seven levels of belief). Personally, I rank the existence of a creator on a par with leprechauns, unicorns, fairies, Santa Claus, Nessie, bigfoot, etc.

Wouldn't you think there's a difference between believing in unicorns and believing in God because where as there's nothing to suggest that unicorns live there does come a maybe about God ? as I previously pointed out in the discussion regarding the formation of the universe.
And while most sane adults don't believe in unicorns, most sane adults do believe in God.

Originally Posted by Blondin

As for 'choosing to be atheist', there is no choice involved. If you really have the ability to choose to believe something that your senses and intellect tell you makes no sense then I have some magic healing crystals you might be interested in.

But I don't choose something that my intellect tells makes no sense, as I previously said that it's very logical to assume that evrything was planned.

Originally Posted by Blondin

That's an attempt at humour, btw. My point is that beliefs should be based on the best information available. There's nothing wrong with provisionally accepting a postulate until convincing evidence is provided for or against it but to cling to dogma that has no compelling or corroborating support is just being gullible.

Here I would like to elaborate that I said that 'you should be agnostics because you follow science as the heart and soul of your point of view as great scientists were agnostics. This is for your intellect but not mine. Why?

Because even though I believe everything that science says, it's not actually the complete heart and soul of my concepts, it plays a good part though.
I follow what my intellect tells me but my intellect tells me somethings other than sscience too. Now this all may seem crazy to you but it's reality for me because I've myself had some experiences and observed things which made my concepts stronger.
But I don't want to tell you about those because you don't believe in such things hence I stick my discussion to science wich is common ground between us.

If you'll like to hear my experience I can tell you.

Originally Posted by Fizanali

Wouldn't you think there's a difference between believing in unicorns and believing in God because where as there's nothing to suggest that unicorns live there does come a maybe about God ? as I previously pointed out in the discussion regarding the formation of the universe.
And while most sane adults don't believe in unicorns, most sane adults do believe in God.

People can be sane but deluded. It doesn't matter how many people believe something, you can't vote for something to become fact; it's either true or it's not. But you're right there is a difference. There is a great deal more evidence to support the existence of the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy than a god. After all, can you prove that all those eggs were hidden by parents and all those teeth were paid for by parents?

Originally Posted by Fizanali

But I don't choose something that my intellect tells makes no sense, as I previously said that it's very logical to assume that evrything was planned.

It is logical to postulate that one possible explanation for the universe is that it was designed but so far the evidence does not support that hypothesis. Everything appears just as you would expect it to in a randomly occuring, expanding universe. We know next to nothing about a first cause and may never know. That doesn't mean that we can just invent a wild-ass story and it is as good as the truth because nobody can disprove it.

Originally Posted by Fizanali

Here I would like to elaborate that I said that 'you should be agnostics because you follow science as the heart and soul of your point of view as great scientists were agnostics. This is for your intellect but not mine. Why?

Because even though I believe everything that science says, it's not actually the complete heart and soul of my concepts, it plays a good part though.
I follow what my intellect tells me but my intellect tells me somethings other than sscience too. Now this all may seem crazy to you but it's reality for me because I've myself had some experiences and observed things which made my concepts stronger.
But I don't want to tell you about those because you don't believe in such things hence I stick my discussion to science wich is common ground between us.

If you'll like to hear my experience I can tell you.

Please do tell your story. I am sincerely interested and open-minded but I have to tell you I hear this all the time. I am always curious to hear what compelling evidence convinced someone to become a believer. Almost invariably they don't want to tell me. I am often assured that their experience is the real thing, a real doozie!, but for various reasons they don't wish to share it with a non-believer. To me this is an admission that they, themselves, find their little story unbelievable. Why would they jump to the conclusion that I will think they are crazy if their story didn't sound crazy to them? In other words, though they won't admit it to themselves, they are simply choosing to believe that which supports what they want to be true and rejecting explanations that don't.