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Argument for God’s existence by an Atheist

This is a discussion on Argument for God’s existence by an Atheist within the General Discussion forums, part of the General category; Hello all. This is my first post. I have been a militant atheist since the age of reason. Don't get ...

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    Default Argument for God’s existence by an Atheist

    Hello all.
    This is my first post.
    I have been a militant atheist since the age of reason.
    Don't get me wrong with this post.
    I live in the realm of reason and think most religions are dangerous and immoral.
    I just thought of an interesting discussion that I would like to share.
    I don't know if this argument has been made before but it has just occurred to me.

    Here goes:
    Everyone alive today is alive because of the unique path of history.
    For centuries people have built churches, waged wars and run their daily lives around religion.
    This has caused the unique chain of events that brought us into existence today.
    Thus: God is the cause of our existence, and we are the cause of his existence.
    Our ancestors created God and we are now the children of God since we could not exist without the major part he played in history.
    (If there was no religion, there could be people, but none of us would be here.)
    God exists in a realm that is outside of our own and you can’t see him but he affects your life whether you like it or not.

    He won't answer your prayers but most believers have said for a long time that he can't intervene anyway. (Sounds about right)
    Thus: The only person that can directly be affected by prayer is the person who is praying, since God only exists in our minds, actions and history.
    What you imagine, you create.

    We have willed God into existence and there is no getting around that.
    That is why God needs worship, praise and faith. Without this he ceases to exist.
    God has been real for thousands of years and I have only been somewhat real for the last 27.
    More people believe in the existence of God, than people who believe or know about my existence.
    God also affects more people's lives than I do.
    Thus God is much more real than I am.
    (Almost all the same arguments could be made for Santa, Elvis and countless others.)

    Sorry if this sounds philosophical.
    I generally despise philosophers and am a man of science myself.
    Hope you found this interesting.

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    Default Re: Argument for God’s existence by an Atheist

    All righty,

    are you saying that god and religion saved humanity, and since we now exist we owe the imaginary
    for saving humanity and letting us (you and I) be born?

    I don't think religion saved anyone, it may have created some good, organization etc,.
    " Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? "
    - Epicurus

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    Default Re: Argument for God’s existence by an Atheist

    I am not saying that God saved humanity or that we owe him anything.
    The God delusion played a big part in the unique path needed for our individual existence.
    A butterfly effect if you will.
    Thus there is no real God only the concept of a God.
    This concept is so widely adopted that there is no way that you or me would be here without the influence of the God idea.
    I don't think that the idea of God deserves any praise, only recognition that it has shaped the world into what it is today.
    Anyone who thinks that there is a man in the sky, who can hear thoughts that you whisper to yourself is a f#@!ing retard.

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    Senior Member Blondin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Argument for God’s existence by an Atheist

    I don't know that you can say that we wouldn't be here without the influence of a god idea. Things would be different for sure, how different is a matter of conjecture. I'd like to think that we would be much better off in many ways if the period we know as 'the enlightenment' had been a bit more thorough in opening eyes (and minds) to the Copernican principle that we are not special or privileged.

    There is no doubt that things would be different but isn't that just a sort of a tautology - If history had been different things would be different today? Why single out religious belief? There must be lots of wrong ideas that influenced the course of history, or could have done so, had some particular idea caught on or not caught on.

    Regardless of how extensive religious belief's influence might have been - so what? I don't think a case can be made for it being a 'good thing'. As for who is more real, you or god, I don't buy the argument from popularity. Reality is what it is. No amount of polling or advertising or proselytizing can make a false idea become true or a non-existent entity exist.
    "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself -- and you are the easiest person to fool." -- Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: Argument for God’s existence by an Atheist

    Hi Blondin,
    I never made the argument that the world is better off because of religion.
    Just that we are all here because of it.
    (I also stated that the same thing could be said about a lot of other influences in history.)
    I think that religion is poison and I would like to think the world would be a better place without it.
    My statements were only meant as a thought experiment.

    Reality is a tricky subject though.(I am no physicist so excuse me if i get something wrong here)
    If you have a look at quantum physics you will find interesting studies like the double slit experiment.
    This shows that matter only comes into existence if it is observed. Physicists call this the measurement problem.
    I think this is best explained by the Schrodinger's cat thought experiment.

    The thing that interests me is that reality might not be as real as we perceive and that we bring matter into existence by observation.
    You might perceive a table or a brick to be solid but it is actually made up of more than 99.9 persent empty space.
    Your brain renders these things as solid objects but most of what you perceive is just energy fields with photons bouncing off of it.
    Another interesting idea I read in The God Delusion by Richard Dawkings goes something like this:
    Remember your earliest childhood memory. You perceive this person to be you but in reality none of the molecules in your body at this moment were present at that time. You are thinking of a different person, not yourself.

    What is my point?

    It all comes down to this idea of: If a tree falls in the woods and there is no one there to hear it. Does it make a sound?

    My thought is just that the idea of a God has turned out to be just as powerful as a real deity could be.

    The idea has influenced everything and everyone and the influence can thus be measured.
    Measured by the people killed, structures erected progress lost etc.
    My argument is that God is real, not as a deity but as an entity described as follows.
    Not made of matter, not existent in our realm, responsible for our existence, has influence over the world and our lives.
    ( As long as we let him )

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    Senior Member Blondin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Argument for God’s existence by an Atheist

    I disagree.

    The idea of a god, or rather the many thousands of sometimes overlapping, sometimes conflicting ideas of gods are very real. There is no evidence that any particular one of them (or any conglomeration of any number of them) is, or ever was, real. A figment of my imagination will always be a figment of my imagination. If I think of a machine and then build the machine that I thought of, the idea and the machine are two different things. The idea is as real as any other idea and can be related and shared with others but, no matter how many people know about the idea (or believe the machine already exists), the machine does not exist until it is physically built.

    And don't get too carried away with Schrodinger's cat and double slit experiments. Physicists don't actually claim that things don't exist until we observe them, they claim that the parts of the universe that we can observe seem to behave in illogical and counter-intuitive ways. In fact Schrodinger proposed his half-dead cat as a way of demonstrating that what seemed to be occurring at the quantum physics level and the reality of the macroscopic world are completely different things. There are at least a dozen 'Theories Of Everything' (TOEs), involving up to 11 dimensions, which attempt to explain what we observe in quantum physics. Theories about reality being shaped by our ideas and beliefs are Deepak Chopra-style misinterpretations or fantasies about what theoretical physicists claim and have no bearing on reality.
    "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself -- and you are the easiest person to fool." -- Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: Argument for God’s existence by an Atheist

    I think I get it. The concept of god or god's have helped humanity to become civilized and organized, (for better or worse), and
    we are the result.

    An imaginary fairy in the clouds has become as powerful as if he WAS real. People believe and do things in the name of the imaginary, the god is not real but the results are?
    " Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? "
    - Epicurus

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    Default Re: Argument for God’s existence by an Atheist

    Thanks for your replies.
    At this moment I would like to concede to Blondin.
    I don’t really think that reality is as flexible as I was trying to make it out to be.
    I also think that there is a clear line that can be drawn between reality and fiction.
    I would like to apologise for any misinterpretations I made.
    I only used the physics examples to demonstrate that we should keep an open mind to what constitute reality.
    Even if fiction leads to certain realities they won’t be real until action has been taken in the physical world.
    It is thus not the fictional idea that has any substance but the act of compiling the idea that brings it into the realm of reality.
    We are not here because of God but the actions of men, influenced by the idea.
    I think that choSenfroZen hit the nail on the head with his comment and completely grasps the idea I was trying to convey.

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    Default Re: Argument for God’s existence by an Atheist

    Hi,
    I just had another idea a couple of minutes ago.
    To define if god is real or not we have to first define what constitutes reality. Let’s have a look at it from this perspective. What is more real, a cheese burger, a human or a tornado. The answer is that all of these are equal. They exist don’t they? There are no degrees of reality only reality and non-reality. We perceive something like a cheese burger to be more real than a tornado since it has a longer life span. You may say that a tornado is a random amount of particles moving around to form a funnel but isn’t a human or a cheese burger kind of the same thing? It is only the time span of existence that differs. If you eat a cheese burger, does it still exist?

    We are all made of the same stuff waves, particles and energy. Now let’s look at our imaginations. Were is it? What is it? Is it real or not? In the physical world or outside it? I think that your imagination is just as real as you or me. I am not trying to say that if I think a cheese burger exists it will pop up onto my table but the actual idea “Cheese Burger” is somewhere in the physical realm. An idea is also made up of energy, waves and particles inside your brain. Now the idea technically, exists in the physical world until you stop thinking about it. It has the ability to act on you and be acted on by the outside world. If someone shoots you in the head it gets acted upon by the outside world. If you go buy a cheese burger it has acted upon you. (Real matter with real physical interaction on a small scale.) In the scale of time since the start of the universe (if there was one) we are all just as quick in and out of existence as the electrical impulses in your mind.

    Let’s forget about theological gods for a moment and compare it to my definition.
    If thoughts are reality, God is everywhere and nowhere. God physically exists in your brain for moments and has the ability to influence your actions.
    Is this idea of god not real?

    What makes these electrical impulses in your brain that constitutes my god idea less real than you or me? It exists for a fraction of a moment just like we do.
    I would like to thus make the argument that everything conceived in the mind is real to some level. A concept is a real object, not outside in the world but inside of the brain and still in the physical realm.
    And that is where I argue god to be.
    Not in one single place but in a million different physical places at the same time.
    God is very real, electrical impulses, causing people to act in certain stupid ways.
    I don’t know about you but the cheese burger analogy has made me really hungry

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    Senior Member Blondin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Argument for God’s existence by an Atheist

    I don't understand where you're going with this. A concept or idea is definitely a real thing but it is still just a concept or idea. The god or cheeseburger or whatever the idea is about is not the same thing as the idea itself. You can share ideas or describe them but they are still not the thing that the idea is about. Some ideas are related to real things and some are not. Some things are imaginary.

    I can see that if a person really believed that an imaginary thing existed their behaviour might be the same as if the thing really existed. When my kids were small we always left cookies & milk for Santa on Xmas eve - and on Xmas morning they had been consumed. No amount of believing would have made those cookies & milk disappear - so I had to do it. Similarly, I am not aware of any action or event that is directly attributable to a god. Some people's actions or behaviour may be attributable to their beliefs about their gods but that is not the same thing.

    I guess I'm just hesitant to use the word 'real' in the fashion you are using it. Phillip K Dick, the sci-fi author, once said, "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." I kind of like that because it provides a clear dividing line between that which we might perceive or apprehend and that which exists regardless of our perception.

    Ideas definitely exist and have power to influence behaviour, but if we lose sight of the fact that they are nothing but conclusions based on interpretations of input, and can be erroneous, then we become slaves to ideology. And, as a race, our track record with ideologies has not been good. That's why I really like to refrain from applying the word 'real' to things that aren't really real*.





    *Except in math, of course, where 'real' and 'imaginary' numbers are both just concepts. But let's not go there...
    "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself -- and you are the easiest person to fool." -- Richard Feynman

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