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Journal Science and Ardipithecus ramidus

This is a discussion on Journal Science and Ardipithecus ramidus within the Evolution forums, part of the Science category; This story is currently the lead on the front page of The Star. It concerns Ardipithecus ramidus and an article ...

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    Default Journal Science and Ardipithecus ramidus

    This story is currently the lead on the front page of The Star. It concerns Ardipithecus ramidus and an article in Science that puts forward that chimpanzees are evolutionarily more advanced than homo sapiens. The Star article says that "chimps are descendants of us", but that's not to be taken literally.

    Speaking of, I can't wait for the spittle to start flying from the creationist quarter. I'm sure that we can expect all manner of outrages and lies from them, including the suggestion that scientists are inventing this as a clever subterfuge to address their oft-quoted and impressively-stupid rebuttal of, "was your grandfather a chimp? Not mine!" and other such addle-brained outrages.

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    Default Re: Journal Science and Ardipithecus ramidus

    I like the 'Ardi' story, but does it really say chimps are more advanced?
    They may have split off tree after us is what they are saying, isn't it?
    There has long been the thought that we and neanderthals etc may have just been
    the few successful branches of a fruitful humanoid tree, perhaps chimps were just
    successful in another way?
    .
    " Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? "
    - Epicurus

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    Default Re: Journal Science and Ardipithecus ramidus

    You're right, not more advanced in the sense that they are "better", but evolutionarily newer than us.

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    Default Re: Journal Science and Ardipithecus ramidus

    My take on this is that chimps have evolved morphologically more than humans have since the split. To me this means that there have been more physical changes in their 'branch' than in ours which implies that their development has been more influenced by their environment than ours has.

    Degrees of evolution or morphological change do not equate to degrees of 'advancement' or have good or bad values attached to them. I think it seems logical that humans, as we developed the ability to communicate and share information (warnings, solutions, etc), became better at adapting to our environment and consequently had/have a greater range of fitness to changes.

    In other words, human evolution has been greater in the area of intelligence and problem solving while our ape cousins have evolved more physically.
    "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself -- and you are the easiest person to fool." -- Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: Journal Science and Ardipithecus ramidus

    True, but we have had some significant changes as well, a slight rotation of the
    hips, our posture became more upright as we came out of the trees, we lost
    most of our hair (shelter, fire, clothes?). I cannot remember who said it, but
    he thought we have stalled evolutionary wise because of our brain.
    We modify our enviroment or ourselves to survive. A naked human animal
    would not survive long without technology; shelter, tools, weapons, heat, clothing.
    On a day like today, 0.0, wet snow, north breeze, I surmise only the specially
    trained or lucky would make past the first few hours.

    "I think it seems logical that humans, as we developed the ability to communicate and share information (warnings, solutions, etc),
    became better at adapting to our environment and consequently had/have a greater range of fitness to changes.

    In other words, human evolution has been greater in the area of intelligence and problem solving while our ape cousins have evolved more physically."


    What I wonder is, do we have to reinterpret "degrees of 'advancement'".
    SInce our surroundings have little difference anymore, our only pressures
    are cognitive, how will we evolve? Taller, healthier, smarter?
    " Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? "
    - Epicurus

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    Default Re: Journal Science and Ardipithecus ramidus

    I think we have a tendency to think of ourselves as being the most advanced end product or nearest to perfection as though the process of natural selection has a set goal or perfect image it is working towards.

    It's sometimes difficult to shake off the years of indoctrination that bred the image of us as the specially engineered product of a master plan and see that we just happen to be one of the only (if not the only) species who happens to be in a position to understand the position we happen to be in (as it happens).
    "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself -- and you are the easiest person to fool." -- Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: Journal Science and Ardipithecus ramidus

    Oh, sorry I didn't mean advanced that way.

    Sort of the opposite, since recording began, we have been on a anti-evolutionary quest,
    unknown to us. Our best have been sacrificed in war, again and again.
    But the social and enviromental pressures are not what is expected now anyway.
    The earner not the strongest, passes genetics on more successfully.

    Are we trading or missing true advancement somehow by being smarter than your average
    orang or chimp?
    " Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? "
    - Epicurus

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    Default Re: Journal Science and Ardipithecus ramidus

    Perhaps advanced is as advanced does?

    It's a bit like trying to quantify success. If a creature hasn't changed in millions of years (like sharks and crocodiles) can they be considered successful? Probably, but I'm very glad that my life consists of more than eating and fornicating.
    "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself -- and you are the easiest person to fool." -- Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: Journal Science and Ardipithecus ramidus

    Can a crocodile smile?
    " Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? "
    - Epicurus

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