+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 37

Rational thinking = Ethics & Morality

This is a discussion on Rational thinking = Ethics & Morality within the Ethics and Morals forums, part of the Atheism category; I'd like to debunk the concept that being rational and logical can lead to immorality and unethical behavior. Consider that ...

  1. #1
    Senior Member zensunni's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Country
    This is zensunni's Country Flag
    Belief
    The Truth
    Posts
    308

    Default Rational thinking = Ethics & Morality

    I'd like to debunk the concept that being rational and logical can lead to immorality and unethical behavior.

    Consider that every moral we have is a freedom we give up for a greater good. No matter what moral you look at, there is always a rational benefit behind it. I challenge anyone to think of a moral that is actually irrational.

    Before you post an example, consider this: is the moral counter-intuitive, or irrational? It's a subtle difference, but needs to be pointed out: there are morals that are counter-intuitive, but none that are irrational.

    For example, it's counter-intuitive to tell the truth in a situation where you will be punished. However, if you consider the benefits of a society and people that never lie, it's more logical to give up the freedom to lie so that everyone can share the benefit of an honest society.

    A society that abandons certain immoral freedoms will be better as a whole because it gives citizens freedom from selfish acts of community sabotage. Thus, the community becomes more important than the individual. The greater the threat an act is to a community, the more immoral the act becomes.

    By evaluating immoral acts based on community threat, you can easily find out which virtues are more important than others. For example, freedom of speech is preferred over honesty, so we give people the choice to lie if they want. Lying only becomes illegal when it causes damage to the community, such as in libel or fraud.

    This is the logic behind our morals. Everything I've laid out is a rational approach to how our society should be run, and it also happens to be ethical and moral. Once again, It's ALWAYS rational to be moral. It's just sometimes counter-intuitive.
    Truth Seeker or Opinion Enforcer?

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    299

    Default Re: Rational thinking = Ethics & Morality

    What's community ?

    My neighborhood, my state, my country, my world ? ?
    The eye with which I see God is the same eye with which God sees me.
    - Meister Eckhart

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Country
    This is Demojen's Country Flag
    Gender
    Male
    Belief
    Cake tastes good.
    Pol. View
    Democratic libertarian
    Posts
    338

    Default Re: Rational thinking = Ethics & Morality

    Yes

    There is no human nature that is not change
    Demojen

  4. #4
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    85

    Default Re: Rational thinking = Ethics & Morality

    The greater the threat an act is to a community, the more immoral the act becomes.

    Are you stating that the community is then the body that decides what is moral? Therefore, morals are detemined by majority rule. No? If the majority have voted and decided that homosexuals pose a risk to the community (perhaps because they are unable to reproduce, for instance, and provide the community with young members) then homosexuality becomes immoral.
    I, personally, have a real problem with defining morality based on the benefit to the community, whatever you define as "community". There are beneficial contracts we make between ourselves and others that support community, but these contracts may not have anything to do with ethics or morals. A racist community may do very well for a very long time, but one might question just how moral is that community.
    A lot of research has been done evaluating our closest cousins, chimpanzees, to determine what moral or ethical behavior might exist in their social networks. Their societies seem to have very different morals to our own in some areas (i.e. sex with minors, brutality towards weaker members of the troop). Other animal species appear to have even less ethical qualms when it comes to infanticide and other acts we would deem immoral.
    Our society has come up with a selection of rules we call morals and in order to survive most of us follow the rules. It makes sense to avoid discomfort, retaliation or segregation by getting along with others, but this behavior has more to do with self-interest than a conscious decision to be "ethical". At least it appears to be that way.

  5. #5
    Senior Member zensunni's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Country
    This is zensunni's Country Flag
    Belief
    The Truth
    Posts
    308

    Default Re: Rational thinking = Ethics & Morality

    The community must decide what is moral. Otherwise, who else would make the decision? However, that doesn't mean the community will always make the moral choice. This distinction is important to note.

    Let's use your example to demonstrate. While the community may decide that homosexuals pose a risk, they don't. In any non-hypothetical community, no matter how many people are gay, there would always be enough heterosexual people to fill the void.

    However, let's change your example a bit to make this a legitimate situation. Let's say that partaking in gay activities has a nasty side-effect of causing outbreaks of leprosy (completely hypothetical). Now, is it moral to do these activities, knowing that you will cause leprosy to others? Of course not. This example demonstrates how changing the community threat changes what is right and wrong.

    But it's not always that simple. Let's use a gray area example. Let's assume that there were only two people left on the planet: a girl and a gay man. Is it moral for the gay man to refuse the woman?

    This is an example where morality simply breaks down and it's up to the individuals to decide what to do. These decisions simply have no moral bearing. Only two decisions go beyond morality. Either, the action has no effect on the community, or the action is a necessary decision that effects 50% of the people negatively and 50% of the people positively. Otherwise, any logical decision is always a moral one.
    Truth Seeker or Opinion Enforcer?

  6. #6
    Senior Member zensunni's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Country
    This is zensunni's Country Flag
    Belief
    The Truth
    Posts
    308

    Default Re: Rational thinking = Ethics & Morality

    There's a couple issues in your argument I didn't address.

    I, personally, have a real problem with defining morality based on the benefit to the community
    My basis on morality and all the examples I used were based on "threat to community", not community benefit. For the community benefit scenario, you have to weigh the benefits vs the threats.

    I think the error that most people make is that they underestimate the devastation of negative threats as opposed to positive benefits. To demonstrate, let's say that you have twenty people who would all benefit from killing one person. In the short term, this may seem like a good idea. But, it's far from logical in creating a stable, productive environment.

    First, there is the Pandora's box effect: by committing the act, it sets the stage for it to be committed again. Secondly, the act is absolute annihilation; it is the end of reality for a particular individual.
    Third, the act is a waste that cannot be replaced; no amount of benefit can equal that amount of threat.
    Fourth, the morale of the community is damaged.
    ..and the list goes on.

    Simply put, life is just so precious that we will hold it above all other benefits. Even for suffering, the effects are always far more devastating to the community. Just as it is immoral, it is also illogical to kill or bring on unwanted suffering when the benefit is not absolutely necessary.

    A racist community may do very well for a very long time, but one might question just how moral is that community.
    Morality and rationality cannot be judged by success. There are more factors at work which determine whether a community does well.

    Also, I cannot think of any situation where racism could actually benefit a community in the long run.
    Truth Seeker or Opinion Enforcer?

  7. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    85

    Default Re: Rational thinking = Ethics & Morality

    I think you're right to make a distinction between "benefit" and lack of threat to the community. While a lack of threat to the community does benefit the community, the concept of benefit does encompass more.

    So morals are to be judged based on the resulting threat to a community? There are degrees of threat however. The community might face the threat of disintegration and dispersement of its members. This threat destroys the community, but not necessarily the individual members of that community. The members still live, but the community dies.

    Let's say there's a community with no option of travel outside its boundaries (could be an island or situated between unfriendly neighbors) and the community is suffering from extreme drought over a period of years where food supplies are insufficient to support its population. The community could share its meager resources with every member and deplete the overall health of the community through malnutrition. This is a real threat to the survival of the community as a whole. Or the community could decide that killing a certain number of its community members (perhaps even feeding upon their nutritious remains) will provide the rest with ample nutrition to keep the community healthy and survive until the drought has ended. This decision to avoid the threat of malnutrition and possible destruction of the community as a whole would be a moral decision. No?

    We have examples of this type of decision being made in a number of animal species. It may not be a "rational" decision since science is still unable to prove other species make rational decisions. Are these species immoral because they have adopted survival skills that do not fit with our sensitivities?

    Does the evolution of our "rational" brain somehow create for us a need to organize a set of moral or ethical values? We are animals only separated from our "brutish" chimpanzee cousins by a chromosome mutation.

    This difference between humans and other animal species seems to prove your point that rational thinking = ethics and morality.

    The community must decide what is moral.
    However, if this hypothesis is correct that rational thinking= ethics and morality, one might question whether communities are equipped to make decisions about morality. The majority (if you assume the community is democratic) may live under delusions about perceived threats (i.e. WMD) that leads to a decision to declare war. The threat doesn't actually exist so the decision is immoral. Right?

    Perhaps the equation needs to include another factor. Rational thinking + scientific evidence = ethics and morality.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    341

    Default Re: Rational thinking = Ethics & Morality

    Here's what Einstein had to say : (works for me)

    "A human being is part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. The true value of a human being is determined by the measure and the sense in which they have obtained liberation from the self. We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if humanity is to survive." (Albert Einstein, 1954)
    There exists only the present instant... a Now which always and without end is itself new. There is no yesterday nor any tomorrow, but only Now, as it was a thousand years ago and as it will be a thousand years hence.
    Meister Eckhart

  9. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    85

    Default Re: Rational thinking = Ethics & Morality

    The true value of a human being is determined by the measure and the sense in which they have obtained liberation from the self.
    What is liberation from the self?

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    341

    Default Re: Rational thinking = Ethics & Morality

    Well, Buddhism talks of this.

    Einstein states:
    "The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description .. If there is any religion that could cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism"

    He also says this:
    "It is clear also that "serving God" was equated with "serving the living". The best of the Jewish people, especially the Prophets and Jesus, contended tirelessly for this.
    Judaism is thus no transcendental religion; it is concerned with life as we live it and as we can, to a certain extent, grasp it, and nothing else. It seems to me, therefore, doubtful whether it can be called a religion in the accepted sense of the word, particularly as no "faith" but the sanctification of life in a supra-personal sense is demanded of the Jew."

    I like your recollection of Carl Sagan's "stardust".

    Yes you are made of star dust.
    There exists only the present instant... a Now which always and without end is itself new. There is no yesterday nor any tomorrow, but only Now, as it was a thousand years ago and as it will be a thousand years hence.
    Meister Eckhart

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. The 6 Mistakes We Make in Thinking
    By SkepticaLynda in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 55
    Last Post: 06-29-2009, 03:55 PM
  2. Bringing Atheism & Secular Ethics Debate to Halifax
    By Demojen in forum Atheist Bus Campaign Discussion
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 02-26-2009, 02:52 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts