This is a discussion on I am antiabortion because I am an atheist within the Ethics and Morals forums, part of the Atheism category; Science has not demonstrated that an only inmaterial soul exists. Really, brain is the only "soul" that exists. A human ...
I am antiabortion because I am an atheist Science has not demonstrated that an only inmaterial soul exists.
Really, brain is the only "soul" that exists.
A human brain is similar one day before delivery and the day after delivery.
Then, delivery should not be considered birthday anymore.
For that reason, a Fetal Civil Registration should be established and abortionist mothers should be sent to jail.
WARNING:
English is not my mother language.
Re: I am antiabortion because I am an atheist But the question is, when is the brain developed enough to sustain itself? When has the sperm/egg grown enough that it can be considered to be a fetus or baby?
I support a woman's right to choice but that is within reason, I do not support an abortion when the women is 5 months pregnant and the baby could survive if she had a premature birth. I do however support an abortion that takes place within the first few months.
At 8 weeks it is still an embryo, at 12 weeks it may have developed into a fetus. An abortion before and up until the 8th week is perfectly fine in my opinion because that thing growing inside the woman is not even a fetus yet, it's an embryo inside a sac the size of a peanut. If you're going to argue that the embyro is actually a baby then you might as well also accuse people for ejaculating the millions of sperm babies they release and a woman for releasing millions of eggs each time she has her period.
In my opinion, the only reason women go through such trouble after having an abortion is because the world has stigmatized it so much that there is an overwhelming feeling of guilt simply because the majority says you're wrong. If it was accepted in society women would not feel post-abortion depression and not have psychological problems. But instead, they are subjected to anti-abortion signs on public advertisements, people going around saying its murder, etc.
*edit* excuse my typos, they've been corrected.
Chris
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Re: I am antiabortion because I am an atheist In form, but not necessarily in function. There are a number of changes that happen in a baby with that first breath.Originally Posted by cesar_noragueda
By "birthday", do you mean the day that the fetus becomes a person?
Okay - you think a baby is already a person when they're born. This doesn't necessarily mean that the fetus is a person all the way through pregnancy.
We can do the same thing from the other end: a fertilized egg has no brain, therefore, it is not a person yet. How large does a fetus have to grow before we can point and say "yes, right here, it's a person?"
You've made another leap there. Just because you or I consider something to be wrong doesn't mean that it should necessarily be illegal. What would be the effect of jailing women who get abortions?
IMO, you might be able to prevent some abortions, but other abortions would still continue, only illegally and unsafely. Factors like these have to be considered before changing any law, regardless of whether you think a fetus is a person.
Thanks for letting us know. If you need me to re-phrase anything, please tell me.
Re: I am antiabortion because I am an atheist Would you support a worldwide Fetal Civil Registration in the 13th week of pregnancy?
Those registered fetuses would have even their own passport, exactly as a newborn has one.
Fathers would be informed about their possible paternity and they and mothers should be forced to sign a document. If they would kill their fetal son/daughter after it, they would face a murder trial.
Re: I am antiabortion because I am an atheist Why a registry?
And how would you accomplish this? Would you have women checked regularly to see if they're pregnant?
Why? According to Passport Canada, children's passports are required to prevent things like kidnapping and human trafficking. The same issues aren't present before the child is born - how can you kidnap a fetus separate from its mother?
Also, what country would issue the passport? If a fetus is already a person, then I assume that they'd be citizens of the country where they were conceived.
Hmm. This sounds like an awful limitation on personal freedom to me, even if you assume that a fetus actually is a person.
Re: I am antiabortion because I am an atheist No, that's ridiculous and brings on so many complications. Many women abort simply because it poses a health risk to the mother. That would spiral out of control and there would be so many doctors, wives, and husbands ending up in courts because someone accused them of conspiracy to kill among other things.Would you support a worldwide Fetal Civil Registration in the 13th week of pregnancy?
Those registered fetuses would have even their own passport, exactly as a newborn has one.
Fathers would be informed about their possible paternity and they and mothers should be forced to sign a document. If they would kill their fetal son/daughter after it, they would face a murder trial.
People have the right to choice, if you take away choice then you become a dictatorship.
Chris
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Re: I am antiabortion because I am an atheist Penguin:
Changes happen along the life, for example, when a child becomes a teenager.In form, but not necessarily in function. There are a number of changes that happen in a baby with that first breath.
In LatinAmerica, not only fetuses, but embryos, are protected. I want that at least be protected in other countries.We can do the same thing from the other end: a fertilized egg has no brain, therefore, it is not a person yet. How large does a fetus have to grow before we can point and say "yes, right here, it's a person?"
If we consider that pederasty is wrong, then it has to be illegal. This is because a victim, a minor, is involved. If fetuses were consired a kind of minors, they shoud be protected with laws, logically.You've made another leap there. Just because you or I consider something to be wrong doesn't mean that it should necessarily be illegal.
Equality:What would be the effect of jailing women who get abortions?
a) Men who kill wives are jailed. If a fetus is a member of a family, women who have abortions have commited a domestic violence abuse.
b) Even dogs and cats are protected by some laws. Shoud a human fetus be less valuable than them?
c) Extrauterine, born, babies are protected, for example, against pederastian rapists. Would it be logical to accept that a doctor who has commited a more brutal aggresion be unpunished?
No, no "regardless", because if a fetus is a person, your theory is invalid. Jack the Ripper commited illegally his crimes. Other serial killers have committed other similar crimes, but neverthless that crimes are not legal.IMO, you might be able to prevent some abortions, but other abortions would still continue, only illegally and unsafely. Factors like these have to be considered before changing any law, regardless of whether you think a fetus is a person.
Re: I am antiabortion because I am an atheist Yes, but when a child becomes a teenager, he doesn't suddenly become conscious and self-aware, does he? This is what happens with a baby's first breath. It triggers a major number of physiological changes. IMO, we can't assume that a baby just before birth can be treated the same morally or legally as a baby just after birth.
Why? I thought you based your judgement of the value of a fetus on the fact it has a brain. An embryo, zygote or blastocyst doesn't have a brain. Why protect them in the same way?
I consider lying and adultery to be morally wrong, but I don't want them illegal. Also, I don't consider it to be morally wrong to drive through a red light in the middle of the night with no traffic around, but I agree that it should stay illegal.
Morality and legality aren't the same thing. Even if you show that something is immoral, this doesn't mean that you've shown it needs to be illegal.
That's not quite what I was getting at.
Let's say you get your wish. Abortion is prohibited and some sort of "fetus registry" is set up. This means a few things happen:
- legal abortions stop.
- the police and justice system work to enforce the law. This takes money, effort and resources that could've been used for other things.
- the women who would've had legal abortions do one of several things:
-- carry the fetus to term, then raise the baby.
-- carry the fetus to term, then give the baby up for adoption.
-- get an illegal abortion without complications and get away with it.
-- get an illegal abortion, get caught and go to jail.
-- get an illegal abortion, but have some sort of complication... maybe they even die.
- your registry system is set up. This takes a huge amount of money, effort and resources that could've been used for other things.
So... when you consider the number of abortions you would prevent vs. the number of women who would die in back-alley illegal abortion clinics and the sheer cost in money (which translates into a cost in lives when you think about the things like hospitals or fire trucks it could've paid for), what makes you think that things would be better the way you want it than they are right now?
The law allows you to kill a dog or cat as long as you don't do it with excessive cruelty.
Yes, because it's not an "agression" because it's not committed against a person.
I don't think you got my point.
Any new law has costs and consequences. For example, say I decide that adultery should be illegal. To enforce this law, I will make everyone wear GPS tracking devices and have the police monitor where we go to make sure nobody's getting up to any funny business.
Is this a good idea? Depends. It has a lot of negatives associated with it: huge financial cost, plus huge infringements on privacy and personal freedom. The fact that we all agree that adultery is bad doesn't mean that this law (or even any law) against it is a good idea.
Re: I am antiabortion because I am an atheist I don't really know how anyone can call early term abortions "wrong". As Chris stated above, that's like getting mad at a woman for not staying pregnant their entire lives so as they never have a period.
I'm a firm believer that until the fetus has two things, it should not be illegal to abort it. They are, thought and the ability to survive after detachment from the mother. This means that the fetus must be able to think and have a developed brain, and if it were to be c-section removed it could survive. Obviously this does not included fetus's showing developmental problems or that pose a serious risk to the mother.
But you said something cesar_noragueda that just fired off in my head.
This, coupled with your mentioning that English is not your first language leads me to believe that you are from Latin America. It also exposes one the reasons that Latin America continues to lag so far behind the developed world. The people there get so strung up over moral issues, that the real issues just pass over them. Before anyone goes spending massive amounts of money to restrict peoples freedoms on the grounds of "moral" disagreement, don't you think there are other issues that need to be addressed?
Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.
Religion, n. A daughter of hope and fear, explaining to ignorance the nature of the unknowable.
Philosophy, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.
-Ambrose Bierce
Re: I am antiabortion because I am an atheist I personally consider moral issues to be "real" issues, but I don't count the crusade against abortion among either one.
I was thinking that, too. He talked about a worldwide fetus registry. If that were actually possible, imagine what could be done if that worldwide network of people spent their time immunizing kids against malaria, say, instead of looking for illicit pregnancies.
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