Did Ancient Rome and Greece fail because of a moral demise?

I was recently in a discussion with a couple who kept insisting to me that Ancient Rome fell as a result of loose morals. They said the Edward Gibbon gave five reasons for the demise of Ancient Rome all having to do with Ancient Romans having no family values and acceptance of homosexuality and other stuff like that. Unfortunately, I cannot find anywhere where Gibbon listed five specific reasons for Rome's decline nor can I find any reliable sources saying that the decline had anything to do with morals. I'm certainly not a historian, so I'm kinda confused. Are they right?

I gave them counter reasons for Rome falling (including the rise of Christianity and Islam). My status as an atheist (they were Christians) lead them to believe that I was biased and angry and attacking Christianity and they no longer wanted to discuss the issue. So, sadly, I was not able to get any clear explanation from them about how and why Rome would have fallen because of morals. But I really am curious: WHY did Rome really fall? Was it morals? Were there more concrete reasons? Could it have been because of religious influences? Was this whole exchange that I entered into simply another example of uneducated Christians discriminating against a curious atheist?

Considering morality is not a "set in stone" guide but rather the way a society comes to terms with issues through the imposition of guilt and punishment I'd say the question is misleading. To ask "did Rome fall because of its loose morals" assumes there is a set of morals upon which Rome only loosely followed and not that morality is just the rise of memes in a society which come about to benefit the greater whole, for example: murder is wrong because killing people reduces genetic variation and not because it is inherently wrong therefore society will enact laws against it and brand it immoral. The question would be better phrased "was the system of morality which came about in ancient Rome one that negatively impacted the general population in the long term and lead to it's eventual downfall", to which I would say no. Consensual buttsex never hurt anybody.

Originally Posted by Kiefer

To ask "did Rome fall because of its loose morals" assumes there is a set of morals upon which Rome only loosely followed and not that morality is just the rise of memes in a society which come about to benefit the greater whole

I agree, but I suppose I was referring to Christian morals or at least the morals of the couple I was in disagreement with. I know many Christians believe in an absolute truth when it comes to morals (and of course it is only they that know this truth).

I was thinking that Christianity did have a role in the demise of the Roman Empire. I think even Gibbon (who they were quoting) said somewhere in his book that Christianity played a role because Roman soldiers started converting to Christianity and they became more concerned with the afterlife than with their life on earth. As a result, they no longer wanted to seek out honor in battle and became sissies. Islam attributed to its demise in that Muhammad (and his predecessors) began conquering all over. But as I said earlier, the Christians I was talking to got all offended that I would blame their religion for the Fall of Rome and ended the discussion. So I was left hanging and wondering if I was correct at all.

I think it is much more true the reasons Penguin gave. Those reasons are much more concrete and historically irrefutable. It amazes me that Christians even try to use Ancient Rome as an excuse to spread their discrimination. Thanks so much for the explaination.

Rome never really fell, it split into two parts. Rome declined because it continuously debased its currency while suffering from considerable corruption. Rome is reborn today in the European Union. I suppose it is possible to say that it fell but is has a much more complex history than that.

In terms of the Christianization of the empire it was more of a rebranding than a conversion. It is doubtful that Constantine was a real convert, rather he was an astute politician who recognised that way the breeze was blowing. Consider that the vast majority of Christian celebration is rebranded Pagan worship, Christmas, Easter (Ishtar), etc... Christ was born in October not December. He celebrated Passover not Easter. Etc....

Originally Posted by Grace Roberts

I know many Christians believe in an absolute truth when it comes to morals (and of course it is only they that know this truth).

They're wrong. There's no beating around the bush, the reality is that anyone who thinks that is wrong. End of story.

EDIT: And probably fucking retarded.