Newbie Atheist?

[stebra.]

I've gotten into a bit of a pickle, here's my story:

Originally I'm from New Zealand, I've lived there practically my whole life. Just recently I moved to America. In New Zealand, there aren't very many religious people, and when there are they aren't hardcore, now in America; it's a different story. I'm an atheist, and people at my new school have a problem with that. They're always trying to start debates with me about whether or not God is real, and I'm not a mean guy - I'm not gonna tell them to piss off or anything but I just want some sorta dispute to put up. Problem is, I barely know anything - I've tried a fair amount, watched some documentarys about religions and atheism and that kind of stuff but nothing's really given me some information that I can bring up.

That's where I need your help, I need to know what I believe in - Evolution. Basically I want to know what evolution is, how I can pull out some information that'll make the religous people think about for a few seconds. OR if anyone's got some funny comebacks such as:

"Me: Do you think you go to a better place when you die?
Religous: Yeh, to Heaven.
Me: Then why don't you kill yourself?" <-- I heard that in a documentary.

Any help would be appreciated.

[Penguin]

For info on evolution, Talk Origins is excellent. They've got good summary articles, plus a an archive of creationist claims where you can look up typical creationist claims and find the scientific response.

http://www.talkorigins.org/

In terms of the god/no god questions, Iron Chariots is a counter-apologetics Wiki that has listings of responses to common theistic arguments.

http://www.ironchariots.org

[stebra.]

For info on evolution, Talk Origins is excellent. They've got good summary articles, plus a an archive of creationist claims where you can look up typical creationist claims and find the scientific response.

http://www.talkorigins.org/

In terms of the god/no god questions, Iron Chariots is a counter-apologetics Wiki that has listings of responses to common theistic arguments.

http://www.ironchariots.org

Thanks for both of those links.
I'll look through them.

[Kaeso]

That's where I need your help, I need to know what I believe in - Evolution. Basically I want to know what evolution is, how I can pull out some information that'll make the religous people think about for a few seconds. OR if anyone's got some funny comebacks such as:

"Me: Do you think you go to a better place when you die?
Religous: Yeh, to Heaven.
Me: Then why don't you kill yourself?" <-- I heard that in a documentary.

Any help would be appreciated.

Not specifically about evolution or even atheism in particular, I'll point out something which Baron d'Holbach pointed out centuries ago which ought to at least give Christians pause. The miracles attributed to Jesus in the New Testament didn't occur in some mythical place and time, but in the Roman province of Iudaea. Considering that Jesus is said to have fed the multitudes and healed the sick and even raised the dead, and indeed that the dead are said to have risen from their tombs and walked the earth when he died (according to Matthew), amongst other things, it is quite remarkable that the Roman authorities didn't take the slightest note of any of this. That is to say our only sources for these events are Christian writings: they are entirely unverified by any other sources, and yet we would expect them to be, if the unprecedented events described were real.

[choSenfroZen]

I think I know what you mean, you need rebuttals to
the verbal antics of your mates.

http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismm...heismMyths.htm

http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismm...nt_Atheism.htm

both these pages have info that will, 1st let you know what twisted logic they are using
and the just plain lies( misconceptions ) that theists use to argue, and some pat answers
to their sometimes bizzare arguments.

welcome to forum

[Penguin]

Not specifically about evolution or even atheism in particular, I'll point out something which Baron d'Holbach pointed out centuries ago which ought to at least give Christians pause. The miracles attributed to Jesus in the New Testament didn't occur in some mythical place and time, but in the Roman province of Iudaea. Considering that Jesus is said to have fed the multitudes and healed the sick and even raised the dead, and indeed that the dead are said to have risen from their tombs and walked the earth when he died (according to Matthew), amongst other things, it is quite remarkable that the Roman authorities didn't take the slightest note of any of this. That is to say our only sources for these events are Christian writings: they are entirely unverified by any other sources, and yet we would expect them to be, if the unprecedented events described were real.

Especially since we have records from historians who were actively chronicling the events of the period in the region. Josephus, for instance. The same goes for the supposed slaughter of the infants by Herod: Josephus wrote about Herod's reign in detail (and was no fan of Herod, either), yet somehow failed to notice that he rounded up all the infant boys in the kingdom and had them killed.

Similar for the Exodus: it was before Josephus' time, obviously, but there's no record of it outside the Bible. In fact, the archaeological record of ancient Judea shows a nice, smooth transition: the people who became the Jewish nation were the original indigenous people, not some group that came in from Egypt and displaced the native people there.

[Kiefer]

First off, welcome to the forum.

That's where I need your help, I need to know what I believe in - Evolution.

I read this and felt a little unnerved, perhaps you worded it wrong but it seems to me almost like you're taking evolution as a belief without knowing anything about it. I recommend you don't do this, as it only adds fire to the fallacious argument of "Atheism is a religion".

Now some good resources on evolution I recommended are the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_common_descent Wikipedia is always a good place to start (but don't rely only on it).

www.cassiopeiaproject.com This sites videos on Biology and Evolution are top notch.

Lastly some YouTube users that make great Atheism/Evolution related videos are:

Thunderf00t Specifically his "Why Do People Laugh at Creationists" play-list.
cdk007
DonExodus2
richarddawkinsdotnet
LiberalViewer

The video section on this site has some good examples as well.

OR if anyone's got some funny comebacks such as:

While reading Dawkins latest book I came across a funny one (not quoted word for word). A creationist woman states that she can't see how life could change, even over millions of years, from a single cell to a human. J.B.S. Haldane reply's "But madam, you did it yourself. And it only took you nine months".

http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Com...eist_Arguments This link has a good list on common Theistic arguments and debunking them as well.

I'm also going to add this video right to this thread, it's the best (that I've found) in covering Creationist arguments against evolution.

[video=Evolution - The 'Best' Counter Arguments]23[/video]

[zensunni]

The best way is to defend your position is to familiarize yourself with logic and logical fallacies. Pretty much all arguments given by regular people are logical fallacies, even when not arguing religion. It will not only help you win arguments, but will bring you more understanding and structure in how you think. Things start becoming more clear and less hazy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/books/...8946-item.html

There are also a few other things to keep in mind:

1) Keep putting the question of evidence to them.

They, no doubt, will have lots. But it will all be faulty because they are arguing for either the unknowable, or the impossible. Remind them that their evidence is not even permissible in court. There's a short list of pretend evidence I made a while back: Faulty evidence for the existance of god

2) Identify their assumptions.

Arguments for religion are always based on assumptions which haven't been identified. For example: A good argument against the big bang theory is that it doesn't make sense that something comes from nothing. That is until you point out the assumption that the universe has to make sense. Our understanding of reality is based on observation, not opinion or intuition. Keep reminding them of their assumptions.

3) They hold the burden of proof.

You don't have to prove that god doesn't exist. You only have to prove that there is insufficient evidence to believe in god. Let them know that their claims are on the same level as any other what-if scenario. The best example is equating it to the premise behind the movie "the matrix".

4) Remind them that god is not described as unobservable.

What people will do is say that god is unobservable and mysterious. They will turn god into this nebulous thing that has no effect on anything. In this scenario, you cannot disprove things that are, by definition, unobservable. However, there is a catch: Religion doesn't say god is unobservable. In fact, it says quite the opposite. The claims made in the bible are very physical.

You can then point to the statistics that the more religious countries also have the highest amount of crime.

But, they'll counter with the idea that when you're not "testing" god, then he will do miracles. To counter this, ask why god would not allow legitimate evidence, then base eternal damnation on your belief of him. Point out that this is simply setting people up to fail.

5) Put the argument on hold.

You won't have all the answers and some fallacious arguments are very hard to unravel logically. Agree to drop the argument if you find arguments you can't seem to counter. Keep the arguments in mind, look it up (or post it here), and then talk about it the next time it comes up. This keeps the conversation ongoing and keeps people's minds open. In prolonged debates, both sides usually end up more hardened and intellectual discussion seems to disintegrate.

I also agree with Kiefer on finding out what to believe. It's best to peruse the truth, not what you want to be true. So, when you read about evolution, feel free to hold it to scrutiny and ask lost of questions.

Also, there's another youtube channel I would reccomend: QualiaSoup

[Supaman89]

[video=Evolution - The 'Best' Counter Arguments]23[/video]

What an excellent video that was, but unfortunately we all know religionuts don't like to reason, even if you showed them that video they would just say something like "well, I have faith in the lord's word and that's all that matters"